Giving my demons the year off has left me time to take care of some housecleaning, like backing up my old files to the cloud before my next hard drive crashes. About a week ago I ran across a couple of old Word files that I thought were lost forever: transcripts from something called “the Macallan Talks”. The premise was simple: two full fifths of Macallan 12-year-old scotch, a cassette tape recorder, William Salyers and myself. We would talk about what we always talked about, but capture it on tape finally so that I could transcribe it and then possibly either publish or stage it. Or at least that’s what I recall the plan was. This was over thirteen years ago, so I’m not really sure what I was thinking. All I know is that this conversation has never seen the light of day until now.
Mostly you get an ardent exchange between two friends who love talking, especially to each other. Bill and I still blather like this, whether on the phone, since we no longer live in the city, or into the wee hours over scotch and illicit cigarettes, on the now ever rarer occasions when we do manage to get together in person. What strikes me most clearly now looking over these transcripts is how little our positions have changed in the intervening years. Bill still ardently defends his “craft” against any woo-woo incursions of higher powers or purposes. I still maintain that what we do, when we do it well, matters in sublime and fundamental ways we can only barely glimpse in fleeting, incomplete flashes.
Had I made these discussions public at the time, I am convinced that they would have been dismissed as the pompous rantings of a pair of third-tier theatre artists who thought way too highly of themselves and each other. Now? Well, nothing’s changed. All of that is essentially still true (sorry Bill, at least you have a television career), but somehow I imagine (hope?) that the intervening near decade and a half gives our arguments some resonance beyond the moment. Of course, the final analysis is up to you. I publish the full first cassette side transcript at the end of this post. I will publish the second side in another upcoming post. In the meantime, some highlights from the first half:
On lying and acting . . .
(I try to start the tape without Bill knowing but he can tell something’s different about my face. I’m a horrible liar…. )
PAUL: So let’s talk about lying. Is a good actor a liar or not a liar.
BILL: Well you know what Plato thought about that?
PAUL: What?
BILL: He literally thought–
PAUL: Micky Mouse’s dog?
(beat)
BILL: I was about to imitate him and then I realized I couldn’t.
(He laughs.)
‘Cause he doesn’t–
BILL & PAUL (together): Say anything!
. . . .
BILL: From what I remember reading in college, Plato said that actors should be killed because they lie.
PAUL: See I consider myself a pretty good actor and I cannot lie to save my life.
BILL: Well, I can lie but I consider them to be two separate things. I don’t… I don’t lie unless I absolutely have to, and I hold that to a pretty high standard. It’s not about my convenience. I’ll take a lot of shit before I’ll tell a lie. Because of that thing we were talking about. About how it’s an allowance. How responsibility comes with the power.
PAUL: Right.
BILL: And the only way I can tell a lie is to buy into myself.
PAUL: Yeah, so you involve yourself in the Dark magic.
On art versus craft . . .
BILL: . . . I think the word “art” is pretty useless. It is so subjective as to be pointless–
PAUL: Like “love” or something like that?
BILL: Exactly.
PAUL: Well, what would you replace it with? Or would you?
BILL: I’m not sure that you need the word. It’s almost used to describe that which people don’t have the capacity to describe another way. When someone says “art” they’re either collectors talking about something that’s worth a lot of money, or they are people who are moved beyond the ability to express… that.
PAUL: What about when somebody says, “The way that guy does phad thai is a frickin’ art?”
BILL: he’s talking about a transcendent experience that goes beyond what he understands as being the execution of… the act.
PAUL: Well, what about that? Is there something to that? I mean this “transcendent experience”– if we don’t have a name for it beyond “art” shall we not call it that?
BILL: I think it’s the height of craft. When I approach a role there are a whole lot of givens. I think particularly in acting, and particular among young actors, there’s a need to over romanticize what we do.
PAUL: Well, yeah… and then you get into that nastiness of Method and that whole “I-must-go-through-that-which-my-character-has-go-through” nonsense.
BILL: Yes. That’s right. And actors saying things like– in all seriousness– “I don’t like to like to take about the craft ’cause I don’t like to over analyze it. And if I over analyze it, I’ll kill it.”
PAUL: Which– yeah– sounds like somebody who…
BILL: Doesn’t know what the fuck they’re doing. that’s exactly right.
On going the dangers and responsibilities of playing a dark role
PAUL: … Ok, I’m gonna go on the record about TUESDAY. I think that the reason why TUESDAY was hard was because you had met the wall with your “craft”, and with TUESDAY you had to be an artist. And you were an artist, but it hurt because you were entering a realm where– to use those fantastic mytho-terms– you entered the realm where you were naked and raw. It’s like the total hero’s journey. At the beginning we see the hero and he’s kick-ass, but he finally meets the challenge that is capable of kicking his ass. And then it becomes interesting. That’s where the heart becomes involved. And that’s why I argue this art-versus-craft argument over and over again. And that’s why I’d like to try and get to the meat of it.
BILL: So you’re a masochist, because art has to hurt.
PAUL: No… No… It’s an old Buddhist thing. You see Westerners misunderstand Buddhism because they think it’s nihilism. Because they say, “Well what a Zen Buddhist does is he sits in a room for eight hours, and that’s torture!”
BILL: Mmm-hmm.
PAUL: And it is torture, and I do kinda share the opinion that the people that are attracted to Zen are masochists, but I do it, and I’ve sat in a room for 8 hours and I’ll probably do it again. See the problem is most Westerners misinterpret Buddhism as saying “You must suffer.” And I would interpret it slightly differently. I would say true Buddhism is: “You will suffer.” But ultimately the suffering is as unimportant, if not more unimportant than the pleasure.
BILL: So you don’t glorify the suffering.
PAUL: No. Not all. The suffering is a message. And there’s something to be said for computer metaphors– the suffering is like an error message, saying, “Ok, error in sector B. You’re suffering. Why? Why are you hurting?” Like, why does it hurt to do TUESDAY?… And you’re looking for reasons like your technique wasn’t quite right, and I’m saying no. You’re doing everything right. You just refuse to admit that that which you are doing is more important than you think it is. And that that which you are doing is more connected and more vital and more rooted in who you are than you feel comfortable with as a craftsman.
BILL: Well my reaction to that is first of all is that… if we go that way for a moment, if we accept that as a truism, I have absolutely no problem in saying I’m not interested in that. I’m not interested in self-flagellation in public. That has no–
PAUL: Well, first off that’s not what I’m talking about. And second off, if you were to say that to a Zen master, he’d probably give you a whack on the head, but then he’d say, “Who cares what you’re interested in?” No one cares what you’re interested in.
BILL: But remember I act for selfish reasons.
PAUL: Well, maybe it’s time to wake up. . . .
To follow is the full transcript of the first side of the cassette.










